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ข้อความ:: [QUOTE="Yakumo, post: 216979, member: 1690"]เกี่ยวกับระบบ Close Loop ใน D17A และ K20A I believe the answer might be YES...i.e. Apexi's SV/AFC2 is useless on newer Honda ECUs. Newer Honda engines i.e. D17A / K20A are controlled by CLOSED LOOP system. The engine uses four wires type of O2 sensor, the speed of feedback control time is quick. O2 sensor of 4wire type has built in heater, which can generate O2 signal immediately after engine start and low exhaust temperature at the time of an idling. It means O2 signal is available at all conditions. This O2 signal can control fuel finely with realizing engine performance of more power and less fuel. It means automotive ECU becomes very clever. The clever ECU installed to vehicle after 2000 can detect the change of data immediately by Piggyback, Sub-computer (so called after market tuning ECU) which subsequent engine check lamp lighting, a rough idling, and the fuel adjusted by airflow, MAP sensor, additional injector, etc returns to the original A/F ratio immediately being unable to increase an engine output power and other various problems are incurred. Hope this helps some people who's planning to install a S/VAFC2 in their 03+ model. The O2 sensor (as mentioned above) does allow the ECU to try and maintain a "setpoint," in our case 14.7 A/F ratio. The only time this doesn't hold true is at WOT, where the ECU jumps to tables, which have hard-programmed A/F ratios. You can dyno tune the partial throttle area of your car all you want - over time (not immediately, but eventually), the ECU will trim the fuel away because the O2 sensor is reading either more rich or lean (that's what the STFT - short term fuel trim, and LTFT - long term fuel trim, are for).... Yes it sucks. This is why a lot of the guys at HT convert to either OBDI ECUs or run Hondata or Uberdata...... The newer civics may be smarter. I have a 01 so it's like the dinosaur of the 7th gen's. the oldest 7thgen ECU may not be affected? like 01-02? 03+ may be different. I know that newer Subaru's have smart ECM's and u can only go with like UTEC so make modifications. Oh yeah...OPTO....thanks that sounds like good news. FMU/Emanage combo may not bother th ECU. i also forgot to mention that in my opinion i think there is some truth to this but also false...but see they say the ecu learns from the vafc adjustments and doenst work... my belief and i also agree with him is that it does that only on the newer ecu.. 03+... see.. they say after a few weeks or months the ecu resets... i have a friend that has a turboed that got his car tuned and its gonna be well into a year that his car has been tuned... then recently he got his car dynoed again yesterday and i was with him and the settings where pretty much the same... just a 1 point adjustment at the 6000 rpm and he was set again...but he drives an 02 which makes me think that the 01-02 dont learn but the newer ones does Ogio wrote: don't intend to be a wet blanket but V/Safc2 is useless on your ES5, read on ___________________________________________________________________ I believe the answer might be YES...i.e. Apexi's SV/AFC2 is useless on newer Honda ECUs. Newer Honda engines i.e. D17A / K20A are controlled by CLOSED LOOP system. The engine uses four wires type of O2 sensor, the speed of feedback control time is quick. O2 sensor of 4wire type has built in heater, which can generate O2 signal immediately after engine start and low exhaust temperature at the time of an idling. It means O2 signal is available at all conditions. This O2 signal can control fuel finely with realizing engine performance of more power and less fuel. It means automotive ECU becomes very clever. The clever ECU installed to vehicle after 2000 can detect the change of data immediately by Piggyback, Sub-computer (so called after market tuning ECU) which subsequent engine check lamp lighting, a rough idling, and the fuel adjusted by airflow, MAP sensor, additional injector, etc returns to the original A/F ratio immediately being unable to increase an engine output power and other various problems are incurred. Hope this helps some people who's planning to install a S/VAFC2 in their 03+ model. The O2 sensor (as mentioned above) does allow the ECU to try and maintain a "setpoint," in our case 14.7 A/F ratio. The only time this doesn't hold true is at WOT, where the ECU jumps to tables, which have hard-programmed A/F ratios. You can dyno tune the partial throttle area of your car all you want - over time (not immediately, but eventually), the ECU will trim the fuel away because the O2 sensor is reading either more rich or lean (that's what the STFT - short term fuel trim, and LTFT - long term fuel trim, are for).... Yes it sucks. This is why a lot of the guys at HT convert to either OBDI ECUs or run Hondata or Uberdata...... The newer civics may be smarter. I have a 01 so it's like the dinosaur of the 7th gen's. the oldest 7thgen ECU may not be affected? like 01-02? 03+ may be different. I know that newer Subaru's have smart ECM's and u can only go with like UTEC so make modifications. Oh yeah...OPTO....thanks that sounds like good news. FMU/Emanage combo may not bother th ECU. i also forgot to mention that in my opinion i think there is some truth to this but also false...but see they say the ecu learns from the vafc adjustments and doenst work... my belief and i also agree with him is that it does that only on the newer ecu.. 03+... see.. they say after a few weeks or months the ecu resets... i have a friend that has a turboed that got his car tuned and its gonna be well into a year that his car has been tuned... then recently he got his car dynoed again yesterday and i was with him and the settings where pretty much the same... just a 1 point adjustment at the 6000 rpm and he was set again...but he drives an 02 which makes me think that the 01-02 dont learn but the newer ones does Yes, I read about the same article and concluded that all may not be true after all. To summarise it all, what it means is that the o2 sensor is constantly sending signals to the ecu to compensate of the richness/leaness, even if a AFC is giving settings to control the fueling. But for my case, a Honda Fit 1.5 Vtec, I have been running VAFC2 and the difference is definately there with and without the device. Even after a long time, when I move all my fuel settings to 0, the difference is immediate. Anyway to prove whether the ecu will do compensation, with a AFC, lean it part by part as the days goes by, see if the check engine light will appear or not. If the check engine light appears, then it proves that the automatic ecu fuel compensation thingy with AFCs connected is bullshit, as the ecu should have already compensated to the leaness. My CEL did came on when I ran -18% at 2200rpm, and ever since that happened, I took that article with a pinch of salt. In addition, if indeed there is this problem, I don't think Apexi would have come out with the version 2 of their highly successful SAFC/VAFC without curbing the problem. Come think of it, Hondas are engineered by Japanese, Apexi AFCs are by Japanese. Hondata are from ermmm... usa? Language barrier? Marketing gimmick? Well I may be wrong and the problem may indeed be there, but for my case, the close loop thingy wasn't true. Cheers![/QUOTE]

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